Are Hunt's views on the Church universal?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2020 Book of the month, "Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe" by Hilary L Hunt M.D.
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Re: Are Hunt's views on the Church universal?

Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Lunastella wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 20:00
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 13:58
Lunastella wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 11:49

:icon-lol: That was funny. But, honestly, I highly doubt God would condemn anyone for loving another one, being of the same sex or not, as long as there's consent. :gay-rainbow:
Exactly! Love is love, you're not doing anything wrong! God will love you for who you are, we are all made in his image, so he must be a lil gay (not trying to be blasphemous, just making a point :P)?
LOL I can't possibly say if He is because I'm not even sure He is a he. But I know many LGBTQ+ people who are better Christians than some heterosexual people.
Yeah I agree. He could be a She, or He might even be genderless! But most (not all) LGBT people are better than straight people in Christianity
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Post by Ldpuff »

I believe he is speaking to the Catholic faith. Personally, my church has never made me feel guilty or subservient for sinning. That is the whole point of church, to be able to come no matter how broken you are and be welcomed in as family. Seems to me as if the author needed to expand his church experience.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Ldpuff wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 08:28 I believe he is speaking to the Catholic faith. Personally, my church has never made me feel guilty or subservient for sinning. That is the whole point of church, to be able to come no matter how broken you are and be welcomed in as family. Seems to me as if the author needed to expand his church experience.
I think it also depends on the community you grew up in. It seems he was brought up in a community and a church that were very devout, and very devout Catholics are very much 'you will burn in the fiery pits of hell for you were born into sin'. It is hard to expand out into other communities when the one you grew up in is all you have ever known.
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Post by Nqobile Mashinini Tshabalala »

As much as he is speaking from the point of his Catholic church and upbringing, I think his views are somewhat universal. I shared and understood a lot of his sentiments regarding "church" practices. The do's and don'ts. Also, "Religious" people generally have a way of condemning people.
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Post by kdstrack »

I think he is referring specifically to his Catholic upbringing. I appreciated his honest comments about the way he was taught. The Bible does ask us to recognize and repent of our sins. The author's difficulty was that the Catholic Church's teachings did not offer him forgiveness. He believed he had to keep being/doing good, and his question was: When is it enough? His other confusion came from the Church's constant changes in their teachings. If God's grace and forgiveness are free, why do I have to work to earn it? If the Church teaches the truth, how can they keep changing it? I think his beliefs reflect his personal experience, since it seems that there are many people who believe and still follow the Catholic Church's teachings. He just realized that he didn't believe anymore.
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Post by cd20 »

Sushan wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 20:27 I don't think what the author tries to imply is limited only to Catholic church, or only to the Catholicism/Christianity related institutions, but for all the religions. Nowadays almost all religious teachings are corrupted because many of the religious leaders have become political puppets and they bend the religions as per their political superiors needs, in order to obtain mundane values. So the facts are universal
We will also have to agree to disagree. I do not think all religions are corrupted, nor are all religious leaders. That is stereotyping and not necessary. We cannot judge what all religious organizations do, because we are not there, we do not know. We should only speak to what we know for fact.
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Post by cd20 »

The catholic church is a huge part, yes, because of his background, but I think the views of the author applies to most other churches as well.
I think the church regards sins as bad and maybe the individuals in charge think to prevent people from committing sins by making the feel guilty for commiting anything they regards as a sin.
It certainly doesn't work in many cases especially in this day and age and they should change their methods.
In any case whether things change or not, the author has spoken up.
[/quote]

I do not think Hunt's views apply to most churches. The idea is to love the sinner, but hate the sin. Yes, the author has spoken up, but I do not feel that he did it appropriately. His "facts" are not documented well and it is hard to see where he is coming from. I would be less skeptical of his remarks if I could see the "proof" for myself, or at least where it was coming from. Even when Hunt was paraphrasing the Bible he did not give the Book and chapter he was coming from, which made it hard to follow.
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Post by cd20 »

Bigwig1973 wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 10:24 I think that he has experience with the Catholic church and consequently, they get pointed at in his book. I think is argument is against the changeability of the tenets the church uses, and how it is that they sometimes seem so unnatural and unreasonable. Stifling of natural tendencies seems to be a vein running through a lot of religions. So, his argument there might extend to other religions. I didn't really go to church, but when I did, I always enjoyed it, whether it was Catholic, Lutheran, or Baptist. Some rules, in my opinion, well seemingly unreasonable have a point. For instance, a couple should not sleep in the same bed with their partner until they are married. Assuming that marriage is a fine thing, is that really too much to ask? Exceptional circumstances aside, when is that most likely supposedly too much to ask? Generally, when something fishy is either going on, or about to go on!
I see where you are coming from, and I agree. I think where some churches get it wrong, is they make "religion" about the rules, when in fact it should be about a relationship. Not all "religions" use the Bible, so you do have different rules for different organizations. Even in the different denominations you will find different "rules" or even interpretations of the Bible. That is because man is flawed, but God is not. We are changeable, but God is not.
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Post by cd20 »

Personally, I think rules like sleeping in the same bed as your partner before marriage are unreasonable. Sex aside, what is wrong with sharing a bed? And including sex, there are ways to prevent accidental pregnancies, assuming the couple is straight! Sex is a natural tendency, as put by you, and so is the need for comfort and protection, which comes from sharing a bed with your partner! If it's okay after marriage, what's so wrong with doing it before, especially since not all couples get married today?! I know that this is just the example you gave, but my point is that some of these rules are just not valid in today's society anymore. It's not too much to ask in any way, but it's just not everyone's preference, it doesn't mean something 'fishy' is about to happen!! This is an argument which I think extends to all religions and rules that go back over a millennia that just seem outdated and null and void today!
[/quote]

Why is it unreasonable to wait to have sex until you are married? God designed it as a gift for marriage. There is a special bond that is created when a couple has sex, and again, is intended for a lifelong commitment. Just because the world has changed on it's views doesn't mean we should change God's Word to suit our wants. The way the world has changed isn't necessarily better. The sexualization and disregard to the Bible has lead young people to having sex earlier than ever before and they cannot handle having that bond broken, they are too young to know what to do about it.
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Post by cd20 »

Nkoo wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 11:24 Inasmuch as the author is writing from a Catholic point of view, I think his views are universal and not limited to the Catholic church. I also think that he infers that all churches make society feel guilty for their sins.
I agree that the church should not do that, and not all churches actually do. I think that is not an accurate picture of the church. The church is flawed because we are flawed people, and some people can tend to be too legalistic and judgmental (I used to be too legalistic), but overall the Church can do good and not all of them actually make people feel guilty.
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Post by cd20 »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 15 Dec 2020, 19:16
cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 20:51 We will have to agree to disagree. The Bible does speak specifically against sexual relationships between members of the same sex (Leviticus 18:21-22NIV; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27).
That was purposefully mistranslated in 1948 to fit the American agenda of homophobia in the 1940s. It was translated from a German word meaning 'boy' not man. It was about paedophilia. And even if it was correctly translated, I guess I am screwed in the eyes of God!! :D
In what document was it mistranslated? I am seriously curious where you got that information, not trying to be argumentative at all. Again, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Cynthia Olyy »

It's a pity he's didn't state that expressly, but judging from his religious background, one could tell he wrote from his experiences which couldn't be out of the Catholic belief he had.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

cd20 wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 20:14
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 15 Dec 2020, 19:16
cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 20:51 We will have to agree to disagree. The Bible does speak specifically against sexual relationships between members of the same sex (Leviticus 18:21-22NIV; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27).
That was purposefully mistranslated in 1948 to fit the American agenda of homophobia in the 1940s. It was translated from a German word meaning 'boy' not man. It was about paedophilia. And even if it was correctly translated, I guess I am screwed in the eyes of God!! :D
In what document was it mistranslated? I am seriously curious where you got that information, not trying to be argumentative at all. Again, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
The word homosexual first appeared in the Revised Standard Version in 1946 (not 48 sorry!). It was mistranslated from the German word for boy, which can be found in the original Martin Luthor Bible (different denomination or not, it's still the Bible). The Germans even created the word homosexual in the 1800s, so if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in the Bible back then. If you look back at even the old Greek versions they use the word 'arsenokoitai', the word translated means boy. It's quite a well known fact in the LGBT community. I'll put a link in this so you can see an article on it, it's quite interesting! :) https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has ... the-bible/

I know you're not trying to be argumentative, neither am I, but I personally I really don't believe that God would want people to be prohibited from loving who they want, especially if we were made in His image. Why would He make people gay if He didn't like the gays? Why would he make it sinful if He loves us all? I just don't think He has that agenda, I think He has more important things to do than send the gays to Hell! The American's did when they paid for it to be translated that way to fit their homophobic views! Again, not trying to start an argument, but I am curious to know why you think it is a sin to have a relationship with the same sex and act on those impulses which are entirely natural and can't be helped?
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

cd20 wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 20:06 Personally, I think rules like sleeping in the same bed as your partner before marriage are unreasonable. Sex aside, what is wrong with sharing a bed? And including sex, there are ways to prevent accidental pregnancies, assuming the couple is straight! Sex is a natural tendency, as put by you, and so is the need for comfort and protection, which comes from sharing a bed with your partner! If it's okay after marriage, what's so wrong with doing it before, especially since not all couples get married today?! I know that this is just the example you gave, but my point is that some of these rules are just not valid in today's society anymore. It's not too much to ask in any way, but it's just not everyone's preference, it doesn't mean something 'fishy' is about to happen!! This is an argument which I think extends to all religions and rules that go back over a millennia that just seem outdated and null and void today!
Why is it unreasonable to wait to have sex until you are married? God designed it as a gift for marriage. There is a special bond that is created when a couple has sex, and again, is intended for a lifelong commitment. Just because the world has changed on it's views doesn't mean we should change God's Word to suit our wants. The way the world has changed isn't necessarily better. The sexualization and disregard to the Bible has lead young people to having sex earlier than ever before and they cannot handle having that bond broken, they are too young to know what to do about it.
[/quote]

But what about people who want to spend their lives together but don't want to get married? The age to get married (and therefore have sex) hundreds of years ago when religion was even more powerful was like 14, for girls at least. The legal age in England is 16 and even 18 in some states of the USA, so I don't think that age has anything to do with having sex. Sex is a natural instinct created for survival, and you start developing sexual needs from about 13, but it is also fun. I'm 19, I've been in a 2 year relationship and had sex. I think it should be a personal choice when you decide to do it, I really don't think God gives one to be honest.
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Post by cd20 »

The word homosexual first appeared in the Revised Standard Version in 1946 (not 48 sorry!). It was mistranslated from the German word for boy, which can be found in the original Martin Luthor Bible (different denomination or not, it's still the Bible). The Germans even created the word homosexual in the 1800s, so if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in the Bible back then. If you look back at even the old Greek versions they use the word 'arsenokoitai', the word translated means boy. It's quite a well known fact in the LGBT community. I'll put a link in this so you can see an article on it, it's quite interesting! :)

I know you're not trying to be argumentative, neither am I, but I personally I really don't believe that God would want people to be prohibited from loving who they want, especially if we were made in His image. Why would He make people gay if He didn't like the gays? Why would he make it sinful if He loves us all? I just don't think He has that agenda, I think He has more important things to do than send the gays to Hell! The American's did when they paid for it to be translated that way to fit their homophobic views! Again, not trying to start an argument, but I am curious to know why you think it is a sin to have a relationship with the same sex and act on those impulses which are entirely natural and can't be helped?
[/quote]

I did read the article, and you are right, it was interesting. I still look to other verses in the Bible that speak against it. I had two articles that I was going to attach to support my views, but this site is not letting me do it. Not sure how you got past it, but I can't.
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