What's you opinion on the experience of ingesting of a plant concoction in the Amazon?

Use this forum to discuss the March 2019 Book of the month, "The Unbound Soul: A Visionary Guide to Spiritual Transformation and Enlightenment" by Richard L. Haight
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mmm17
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Re: What's you opinion on the experience of ingesting of a plant concoction in the Amazon?

Post by mmm17 »

Drmplant wrote: 17 Mar 2019, 18:59 I believe the plant concoction is a strong hallucinogenic. I believe that he saw what he was concentrating on prior to taking it. I don't think it was a placebo effect, I believe he was truly high. I just think it was more of a self fulfilling prophecy. He believed he would so he did.
I feel the same way. I think the concoction has actual chemical effects, but that alone might not be enough. He is a special person who believed he could have a spiritual experience, and so he did.
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Post by Enigma44 »

mmm17 wrote: 26 Mar 2019, 17:44
Enigma44 wrote: 25 Mar 2019, 04:21
mmm17 wrote: 07 Mar 2019, 13:22 What's you opinion on the author's experience of ingesting of a plant concoction in the Amazon? Do you think the concoction played an important part in what happened to him during the ceremony or not? Could it be a placebo effect?
What great questions! From my reading of Haight’s account, he was part of an ayahuasca ceremony. It is an extremely individual experience. Taking the herbal concoction is just one part of the whole ceremony - the main goal is cleansing of the body and spirit (or whatever you want to call it). Drinking the yage (as it is also known) makes you vomit uncontrollably, and possibly gives you diarrhea. It is not a pleasant physical experience. It also could have hallucinating effects (but not necessary). The drink could have contributed to any extent to his whole experience. Does not everything have a placebo effect?
Great comments. I do believe that almost anything can have a placebo effect. But some substances have actual major observable effects on the nervous system, which seems to be the case. Anyhow, the question for me is how much of a vision is merely drug induced hallucination, how much is true spiritual experience. And is there a difference?
To me, it is a combination of things. If I understand correctly, to you visions and insights, facilitated by external substances once consumed, are not “legitimate” spiritual experiences? In most religions, prophets/saints/holy figures reach such altered states of mind after exhaustion, starvation, meditation, prayer, some sort of lost, deprivation or alteration. To me, these are similar and as legitimate as taking a substance to aid the process. You do not see it this way?
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Post by Lana Shea »

I think this was a completely dangerous. He had no way of knowing how he would react to the substance. I understand that this is practiced in many cultures, but taking hallucinations is risky, let alone from someone you don’t know, in someplace you have never been. I wonder what kind of medical attention would have been available if he had some kind of horrible reaction?
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Post by mmm17 »

Enigma44 wrote: 29 Mar 2019, 02:42
mmm17 wrote: 26 Mar 2019, 17:44
Enigma44 wrote: 25 Mar 2019, 04:21

What great questions! From my reading of Haight’s account, he was part of an ayahuasca ceremony. It is an extremely individual experience. Taking the herbal concoction is just one part of the whole ceremony - the main goal is cleansing of the body and spirit (or whatever you want to call it). Drinking the yage (as it is also known) makes you vomit uncontrollably, and possibly gives you diarrhea. It is not a pleasant physical experience. It also could have hallucinating effects (but not necessary). The drink could have contributed to any extent to his whole experience. Does not everything have a placebo effect?
Great comments. I do believe that almost anything can have a placebo effect. But some substances have actual major observable effects on the nervous system, which seems to be the case. Anyhow, the question for me is how much of a vision is merely drug induced hallucination, how much is true spiritual experience. And is there a difference?
To me, it is a combination of things. If I understand correctly, to you visions and insights, facilitated by external substances once consumed, are not “legitimate” spiritual experiences? In most religions, prophets/saints/holy figures reach such altered states of mind after exhaustion, starvation, meditation, prayer, some sort of lost, deprivation or alteration. To me, these are similar and as legitimate as taking a substance to aid the process. You do not see it this way?
Thank you for your comments! I totally agree with you that it is likely a combination of things. Moreover, I believe that altered states of consciousness probably only bring out aspects already present in someone's psyche. But I must admit I tend to value "naturally" achieved altered states of mind - by meditation or prayer, for example - over substance-induced ones. I don't really know why, though.
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Post by Anna Maria 86 »

Why would we think it's placebo effect? Different plants might have different effects on human body, some produce hallucinations. I don't think it was placebo, I think it was the effect of the plant. If it were placebo, he wouldn't have felt the effect before others, as his subconscious would wait to feel the effect when he was expected to.
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Post by Kajori Sheryl Paul »

Well, I have never tried something like this. Hence, I can't make an informed assumption here. However, I appreciate that the author included warnings regarding the ingestion of such stuff.
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Post by kdstrack »

I think the concoction was indeed powerful and caused the physical and psychological reactions he experienced afterward. He also seemed to be predisposed to receiving instruction from this experience. Even before arriving he said, "I knew I was about to have an extremely important revelation." This self-fulfilling prophecy met his expectations.
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Post by Src_reader »

This is a really good question that must have been in everyone's mind. Effects of drugs are not unknown to people these days. They may have different effect on different people. If the tribe in Amazon used it as a spiritual guidance, then they must have a reason to do so. It would've been fatal for the author, but it wasn't. If I was in his place and I had nothing else to do except taking drugs for a spiritual experience, then I might've done that too. It depended on the situation he had been.
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Post by Ava973 »

I personally wouldn't do it myself, tropical plants can be often dangerous when ingested. The fact that he did it despite the risk is admirable, and the outcome was definitely of interest to me.
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Post by desantismt_17 »

I have a friend who's partaken in this kind of thing. She said she felt a sense of calm knowing while under the influence. Possible it was a placebo effect, and I wonder if there's a certain pre-existing level of spiritual openness required for substances to do anything of consequence. I don't think it's something I'd do, but I think it's possible that substances can bring about spiritual awakening.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Post by Ekta Kumari »

Good topic. I cannot comment on it based on any personal experience. But I think it can be a placebo effect. Author's predecided conviction and believe in it may have played a role in his visions. However, there are many cases where people get these visions through psychedelics and substances. So maybe it also has to do with chemical reactions in brain and body, especially considering the fact that he got so sick after taking the concoction. It is also noteworthy that during the course of his life, he got many other visions too, and those were without the use of any psychedelics. I don't think there is any way to confirm his visions factually or scientifically, but he did find his purpose in life through his experiences and wrote this book to help others.
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Post by akintundeazeez »

I think they definitely played a role in the experiences he had. I cannot explain how but I do believe that there is a direct linkage whether it was because they believed so or for another reason. The good thing is that he advises against depending on psychotropics for quests.
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Post by Mai Tran »

I don't know if it was a placebo effect or not, but the concoction definitely played a role in his experiences. It sounds dangerous to ingest though.
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Post by NL Hartje »

PGreen wrote: 07 Mar 2019, 13:35 I haven't tried psychotropics for spiritual insights so I cannot speak from experience, but it does seem he found what he was searching for (perhaps placebo effect?) and might have found that anyway without them.
Although I’ve heard many stories of people reaching a higher plane with psychotropics, your mention of the placebo effect has never crossed my mind. Very astute! I tend to agree that this likely has a large impact on the results.
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Post by InStoree »

There are people out there who are dealing with preserving Amazon's forest and plants for their medicinal properties that can be helpful in solving health problems and curing diseases. There is one mix called Ayahuasca or Santo Daime, which is said to open your perception to understand the Universe. Maybe that's the plant that Haight used in the Amazon jungle.
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